BUYING A VINTAGE DOXA SUB © Dr. Peter McClean Millar - June 2008 There are two main questions I get asked all the time - where can I buy a vintage SUB and how much should I pay for it? The stock answer for the first one is check ebay and the various sales forums including the one I set up primarily for selling and trading Doxa watches.

• Doxa Serial Numbers Vintage

For sale is a very nice Vintage Doxa Calatrava Dress watch. The watch features a 36mm stainless steel case and signed screwdown case back, 18mm drilled Lugs for easy strap changes. To my eye the case is unpolished but I have no proof to back this up. There is a serial number on the case back which according to some dates the watch to 1949. However, the example in our Shop is one of the models from the 1950s – a decade when the serial number protocol is unclear according to another thread on WatchUseek called 'A Brief History of Vintage Doxa.' Additionally, we consulted with numerous experts prior to listing to ensure that this watch is in fact authentic.

The second question is far more difficult to answer because it depends on quite a number of factors. What I'll try to do in this essay is to provide a few pointers to what to look for and what to avoid. Hopefully this will allow people to make informed judgments when trying to put a price on a vintage SUB.

OK first things first. There is a basic generalization in life which states that the rarer something is the more it is going to cost. Well that pretty much holds true for the vintage SUBs. Considering that most of the vintage SUBs are in the 30 - 40 years old range and there are not too many of them around, we could consider them as fairly rare. Next we need to look at the different models.

Without doubt the SUB 300 (no T) is exceedingly rare and those that are in good shape probably number in the tens if even that. It is without doubt that the orange dial SUB Professional was produced in the most numbers. It is considered that the black dial Sharkhunter is next, followed by the silver Searambler and finally the yellow dial Divingstar. Not surprisingly the Divingstars don't often come up for sale and when they do, they command high prices. Interestingly, even though the Searambler is considered rarer than the Sharkhunter, the Searambler seems to come on the market more often than the Sharkhunter.

This of course brings in one of the modifiers to the rarer equals more expensive equation which states: even if something is in very short supply, if people don't like or want it, prices will be depressed and they will be traded more often. Which, of course, begs the question; how popular are each of the dial colours? The next thing to consider when looking at a vintage SUB is the logo on the dial. Dials with the US Divers logo are both highly sought after and relatively rare.

Also rare are those with the Synchron star. Even rarer are those with both the US Divers logo and the Synchron star. Rarest of all is the Poseidon logo and to date it has only been seen on a yellow Divingstar and probably less than 5 have ever come up for sale in the last few years. Rocking horse doodoo is probably more abundant that Poseidon Divingstars. Finally there are the ultra rares.

These consist of the HRV Conquistadors, watches owned by famous people and the prototypes. To date there are 7 Conquistadors we know about.

All SUB 300T. There was supposed to be a HRV T-Graph but none have ever been seen. If one ever does turn up for sale it will undoubtedly break all records for a vintage SUB. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for one though. There was also supposed to be a yellow dial T-Graph Divingstar, but again, none have ever been seen. The two famous people SUBs would have to be Clive Cussler's 300T and Gene Cernan's T-Graph.

I think we can forget about owning Cussler's SUB but the Cernan T-Graph has changed owner several times in the last few years. Prototypes are even rarer, but they do turn up. The SUB 500 is a classic example of a watch that the designers thought was a good idea at the time but never saw the light of day. Note the wedge shaped case. The other class of SUB which is also both very rare and sought after is the ladies 200. They were produced in the same colours as the 300T: orange Coralline, black Seamaid and silver Nymph.

A yellow dial SUB 200 was never made. OK so you have just seen a vintage SUB 300T for sale and you are interested in it, what should you be looking for or what questions do you need to ask? Rather than show images of half destroyed SUBs to illustrate the points, I'll show images of pristine watches. You can use them to gauge the condition of any you are considering buying. First thing to look at is the overall condition of the watch. Is it badly 'beaten' with numerous deep scores and dings in the case?

The Searambler in the image above is one I bought quite some time ago, it is a rare example because the chapter ring is red. It is shown after I did some cleaning and minor refurbishing of it. It was in pretty good condition when I got it, so there wasn't much to do. How does the caseback look?

Are there a number of scores and tool marks indicating that the watch has been opened a number of times by someone with the skills of a Cro-Magnon man? Can you still see the serial numbers on the back. Worse still would be if the sailing ship logo or Synchron logo was almost polished away. Probably the most important thing to consider in any vintage Doxa SUB is the condition of the bezel. It is the part that takes most of the knocks and unfortunately it is also the part that is virtually irreplaceable. Over the production life of the SUB 300T, Doxa manufactured several different cases which varied in thickness.

With each case change there was a very slight design modification to the bezel. Although they all look the same, it meant that they were not interchangeable. So if you are thinking of buying a vintage SUB and the bezel is trashed, consider that you may have to live with it in that condition.

If the bezel has minor scratches and has never been worked on then it can easily be polished to remove all but the deepest scratches. The numbers can be repainted using model aircraft paint. Probably the next most important things are the seal groove and the stem tube. Some of the SUB crowns were screw down others weren't. It just depended on the model and when it was produced. As can be seen from the image above, the stem tube is not threaded. What you are looking for is any sign of deep pitting or corrosion in the seal groove or around the stem tube.

Doxa Serial Numbers Vintage

If there is a lot then it normally means that the watch will no longer be water tight. Now that isn't a problem unless you want to go diving with it. Personally anyone who wants to dive with a very rare 40 year old watch is just asking for trouble, but that's just my opinion. These watches are rare and getting rarer, why take a chance to lose it, bash it or score the bezel. It is not unusual to find a little bit of corrosion in the seal groove.

What I normally do if I find any is buff it with very fine sand paper and coat it with some 'RUST KILL' or similar compound for a while. The corrosion comes when the area around the seal, in the presence of moisture, forms a differential aeration cell and rust begins. 'RUST KILL' is basically Phosphoric Acid which converts Ferrous Oxide rust to Ferrous Phosphate, which is harder than my ex wife's heart, and basically stops the auto catalytic process. I hope you were taking notes on that last bit because I'll be asking questions later. Obviously the dial is a pretty important part of the equation. If it is trashed with paint flaking off then there is a possibility that the watch was flooded at some stage.

Not a good thing. The dial could be redone and I'll show one later, but the worry is that the movement could be shagged and there may be other corrosion in the case.

Most sellers are unlikely to open the watch and show the dial and hands like in the photo above, but if possible try to get a close up of the dial. The paint on the dial of a 30 - 40 year old watch will have oxidized considerably, so will the luminous material (most likely Tritium). Silver dials are more problematic as they seem to show 'age spots'. This is caused by the particles of 'silver' oxidising more in some areas than others. I have found that on the vintage watches I have bought that a very light brushing with a cotton bud will remove a great deal of oxide and 'grime' from the dial and luminous markers.

I prefer a bit of discolouration to a lump of paint coming off so I'm very careful whenever I touch dials. Many watchmakers use RODICO to remove dirt and dust from dials, but I have never used it. When you buy a vintage watch you only have the sellers word that it is running and keeping good time.

Many sellers are somewhat economical with the truth in their descriptions of both the condition and functionality of vintage watches. For a 7 day auction it is worth asking the seller to time the watch over 24 hours against. It is very difficult to tell the exact condition of a movement from a photo but there are things worth looking for. Obviously corrosion is a big red flag and will only occur if moisture has gotten into the watch. So look at the condition of the rotor which is the largest surface you will see. Look also for signs of corrosion on the retaining ring. If you look closely at the edge of the retaining ring in the photo above you will see a small amount of corrosion.

When I first saw it, I couldn't understand how it happened because the movement was in tremendous condition and the watch looked like it had never leaked. I then looked at the inside of the caseback and saw that there was a seal which I hadn't noticed before.

It seems that the later Synchron SUBs doubled up on the internal seals something that I never even noticed when I was compiling the Doxa book. It was this seal that had caused the slight 'damage' to the movement holder. So that's basically it. Scratches on the crystal are no big deal because new crystals can be obtained fairly easily and cheaply. Of course unless you are competent enough to can work on watches yourself, it is going to cost to do any restoration.

A movement service was in the 250 - 300 Dollar range the last time I had one done. A crystal was about 50 Dollars. Other than the movement I can do pretty much everything else myself so reluming hands, swapping movements and crystals and finishing the case and bezel is fairly easy and enjoyable. However, not everyone either has the confidence or time to do it themselves so it will cost maybe 300 - 400 Dollars over the asking price to bring the watch up to a condition similar to the SUB 300T Searambler shown above. It is still possible to pick up great examples of vintage SUBs. The one shown above was relatively inexpensive.

It had been serviced by Doxa and looks like it is brand new. It is one of the Aubry period 600T models with the NoDeCo bezel insert. It looks great on the original bracelet. Actually, talking about bracelets reminds me that a functioning original bracelet can add 200 Dollars to the price of a vintage SUB. The bracelets are in even shorter supply than the watches themselves and are a definite bonus for those people who want their vintage watch to be as close to original as possible. I mentioned earlier that I would talk about redialing, well the best thing to do is show an example. The above dial is from a 'scrumper' I bought.

Case was in pretty good condition but needed a fair amount of work on it and the bezel. Unfortunately I can't find the photo of the watch when I received it, but as you can see the dial was completely shagged. And this is how it turned out. I ended up redialing the dial (I had them add the US Divers logo), replacing the crystal, reluming the hands, polishing and repainting the bezel and refinishing the case and caseback. I also polished the sides of the case as is done on the modern SUBs. The vintage ones were brushed.

I used a Sector bracelet after grinding the SELs to fit and removing the name of the clasp. I liked the look of the orange minute hand and sweep hand so I never painted them black. It turned out great and is my daily wear now.

Almost 40 years old and basically rejuvenated. Pity I couldn't do the same for myself. A Flying Doctor Production.

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for buying, selling, trading watches RESOURCES Banner photo courtesy of - Please take a look at our and before contributing! Yeah, sorry, the photograph misled me. What I figured on was that, although small by today's standards (34mm), it wears large as the lug-to-lug distance is quite large. Regarding the orange diver Doxa. The history of these pre-diver Doxas is quite blurry as the current Doxa company doesn't have many ties to the old Doxas except for the name. I'm not sure when the transition happened, but when I asked them for information about my Doxa, they said their archives were flooded and all the documentation was destroyed.

Somebody on WUS (IIRC) looked up the historical floods (or fires?) at the old address of the factory and didn't find any confirmation of this event. But I guess this makes them even more attractive. The mechanism in mine is Doxa 103, I think, and it might also be the same in yours.

My watchmaker said it's a great mechanism, basically.